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Episode 20  |  32:11 min

Putting the Revenue in Marketing with Elle Woulfe (VP of Marketing at PathFactory)

Episode 20  |  32:11 min  |  09.12.2019

Putting the Revenue in Marketing with Elle Woulfe (VP of Marketing at PathFactory)

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This is a podcast episode titled, Putting the Revenue in Marketing with Elle Woulfe (VP of Marketing at PathFactory). The summary for this episode is: On this episode of the Marketing Swipe File, DG sits down with marketing technology veteran Elle Woulfe, VP of Marketing at PathFactory. Before joining PathFactory, Elle built her career at Lattice Engines, Eloqua, and Backupify where she became well-known for her B2B demand gen and account-based marketing chops. Elle talks to DG about all things ABM, marketing to marketers, setting SEO goals, building and managing remote teams, the secrets to growing your career in marketing, and much more.
On this episode of the Marketing Swipe File, DG sits down with marketing technology veteran Elle Woulfe, VP of Marketing at PathFactory. Before joining PathFactory, Elle built her career at Lattice Engines, Eloqua, and Backupify where she became well-known for her B2B demand gen and account-based marketing chops. Elle talks to DG about all things ABM, marketing to marketers, setting SEO goals, building and managing remote teams, the secrets to growing your career in marketing, and much more.

Speaker 1: Hey, it's DG. And I want to send you a ton of free marketing stuff, right to your door or your inbox, whatever you want. I'm serious, because look, we know how it is. One of my favorite things about doing marketing at Drift is that we are all marketers, just like you. We're marketers doing marketing to marketers. It's crazy. And one thing we know that in the B2B world, there's so much content out there, it can be hard to figure out what to read and who to trust if you're looking to grow your business. And so we put together something that I call the ultimate conversational marketing starter kit. We asked our top customers, literally turned to them and said," What resources would you give to somebody new to Drift and conversational marketing?" And we're packaging all of that up to send right to your door for the first time for free. That means I will send you a copy of the book I wrote with my boss, our CEO, David Cancel on conversational marketing. This book was an instant number one new release on Amazon in three categories. And it's already sold 10,000 plus copies to date. I'll literally send you the actual 262 page hardcover book, right to your door. Also, we'll send you, This Won't Scale, a digital copy of our very popular book, This Won't Scale, which is a book we wrote as a marketing team about how we do marketing at Drift. It's 110 pages. It's only been available as a hard copy, but we're making it available digitally for the first time as part of this offer. We'll also send you the Modern Marketer's Playbook. You'll get a digital copy of our Modern Marketer's Playbook, which is a guide we wrote with strategic insights from 35 of today's most influential marketing leaders from companies like Slack, LinkedIn, OCTA, Vimeo, and more. We'll also give you The Conversational Marketing Blueprint, which is the best next step after you read The Conversational Marketing book and it gives you a step- by- step guide for implementing and optimizing conversational marketing for your business. And it's not over, The Conversational Sales handbook. This is a guide you're going to need to give to your sales team to build your conversational sales strategy, AKA, what you do after you take everything you've learned in the book and the blueprint. All you have to do is visit drift. com/ starter and grab all this stuff right now. That's starter, S- T- A- R- T- E- R. I tried to have no Boston accent on that, drift. com/ starter. We'll send everything right to your door, or we'll literally just send an email if you'd prefer that. Drift. com/ starter. And I will see you hopefully there.

Speaker 2: We were just talking about some interesting, which is your background is, you're a Demand Gen marketer? Go back in history a little bit because you have an interesting story from Eloqua to Lattice, to what you're doing today. How did you get into Demand Gen? I want to unpack what Demand Gen was and then what it's transformed into.

Speaker 3: Actually it's so funny you say that because I just had this long... I actually just did away with the concept of Demand Gen on my team. And I have this whole theory on what Demand Gen is now.

Speaker 2: Which we are also going to talk about?

Speaker 3: But anyway... I actually bought a marketing automation platform back in 2000 and I don't know, six or something like that?

Speaker 2: How much was that?

Speaker 3: Oh gosh, jeez.

Speaker 2: It wasn't cheap.

Speaker 3: Right off with the hard question. No, it wasn't cheap. At that time, it wasn't. I mean, marketers, weren't buying tons of technology at the time.

Speaker 2: That's the only reason why I asked how much it was, because I bet that feels like it had to have been the most expensive thing anybody had ever.

Speaker 3: Oh, for Sure. And it was also like, marketers weren't good a making those business cases and CEOs didn't know how to... Like why should I justify this thing or this thing? It is this typical case of we were using a batch and blast email tool and loading up list from Salesforce and doing that whole thing. And I had a really smart guy who worked for me. He was really young and he was like," I think we need to do this marketing automation thing. It's going to be a big deal. We should do it.". And I was like... And then I started to look into it and I was like," You're absolutely right." It's kind of this one thing that we can own. We can have control over it, we can own our own data. We can do all this cool stuff. We ended up in this head- to- head deal with, what was then Silver pop, which became veterans and Eloqua. And we ended up buying Silverpop. And so, and I got to be part of this process where we built kind of the demand gen process and implement the funnel and did all that stuff. And so that was my sort of first foray into that.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 3: Fast forward, this was... Had to have been 2008 and because the economy just tanked and suddenly I find myself out of work and I got an interview at Eloqua and all they wanted to talk about was," Why did you buy Eloqua?" And I was like-

Speaker 2: Did they remember you?

Speaker 3: Oh yeah. Are you kidding me? I was uniquely positioned to explain everything that went wrong in their sales process-

Speaker 2: Which is probably made you an amazing hire because they can tell on the other side.

Speaker 3: It was... I actually had all this Intel. I had the business case we had built and I had all these side- by- side comparisons of both platforms. And so that's, I think what got me my job at Eloqua and I think that was really when demand gen was starting to form into a real discipline and become a career path for people. I do credit the marketing automation ecosystem for kind of giving birth to that. I think that's where that all started.

Speaker 2: I think if you rewind... Because my guess is I wasn't there obviously, but 2006, it's harder for you to make the case, what-

Speaker 3: When you were in second grade?

Speaker 2: No. Come on. 2006. I was no... I mean, I wasn't at your company.

Speaker 3: I feel so old.

Speaker 2: In 2006, freshmen in college-

Speaker 3: All right. You're close.

Speaker 2: Just doing a bunch of nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Speaker 3: Oh please, I don't believe that for a minute.

Speaker 2: No. Nothing that has helped me today at all. I can tell you that. No. But because I'm sure it was hard to go and make this big expense because marketing wasn't... It wasn't easy to attribute marketing to revenue.

Speaker 3: Well, marketers didn't know how to prove much of anything, I think back in those days. I mean we weren't really asked to. I mean, at the beginning of my career when I first got into marketing, I don't ever really remember being pushed for metrics, let alone tie myself to revenue, that wasn't a thing. And the tools didn't exist really to do it.

Speaker 2: What were you pushed for then?

Speaker 3: Activity. Showing that I was doing stuff. I worked for a lot of CEOs who I think to justify that marketing was... Should exist, they needed to show that they were just doing a lot of stuff. That's literally what it was.

Speaker 2: Write a lot of events, we're printing out a lot of stuff.

Speaker 3: I mean, it was a little bit of that to be honest with you and it wasn't really, until I got to Eloqua that it was like," Oh, this is hardcore." I mean, Eloqua had... They were trying to lead the market and have a philosophy about how this should be done. Marketing had a number and it was an opportunity number, we carry in SQL number, we were all bonused on it, our comp plans were tied to it. Eloqua sent a marketer and a president's club every year. It was a real thing.

Speaker 2: Did that feel like a big culture shift for you? Like," Oh, I'm among all these people like me."

Speaker 3: Well then it was. It was actually a little intimidating because I was cooking for chefs. It was like," Oh, okay. This is where the big kids are."

Speaker 2: I feel like that every day because we sell to marketing people. And so if there's a typo, if there's something off, people love to take a screenshot and send that to me because it's like," Are you going to show me how to do my job, buddy? We'll check this out." crosstalk

Speaker 3: I think I say this lou. I mean, I've made a career of marketing technology to marketers. That's what I've done for most of my adult life. And I do think you do have to work a lot harder. I think marketers like marketing and they check it out and they're interested in it, but they also scrutinize it.

Speaker 2: Which I too I love it though for that reason, because I actually feel like... I think one of the... I've had a similar, only done marketing. I started off in PR just because I needed a job. And they said, I'll pay$ 10 an hour to come be here and great. I did that. But then since then, I've only done marketing to marketers just by coincidence, Constant Contact, HubSpot and Drift. And what I've realized that I love is, if you know it, it makes the hard part of marketing much easier, which is like, I would be terrible at my job if I was doing marketing in a cybersecurity company, or storage or something like-

Speaker 3: I tried it. I was really bad at it. I was bad at it but I don't... I mean, to some extent, I think I was lazy. I was like," I don't know this person. I'm not sure I care to know this person." It is easier when the persona that you're marketing to is you. I also think the nice thing about it is, like I said, right? You can get away with a lot less when you're marketing to marketers. You have to be creative. You have to be witty. You have to be clever. You have to be all these things. And I actually think it makes the challenge of marketing to some extent, even harder. I think if I were marketing to a different persona, the challenge would be elsewhere. I'd have to get to know that buyer and that would be really hard and there would be other things that would be difficult, but marketing to marketers really forces like the discipline around," Is this the best thing I could do? I'm I being lazy here? Is it funny? Is it interesting? Is it engaging?"

Speaker 2: Someone's going to call me out.

Speaker 3: Someone's going to call you out.

Speaker 2: I think in most industries this wouldn't work but the thing that I think, and obviously the advice is, do what your customer, you're listening to your customers, talk your customers. But a lot of times I just... Am like"Will I click on this?"

Speaker 3: Oh totally. I sent an email yesterday to my team and I was like," Worst subject line ever." And then two people were like," I think it's hysterical." And I'm just like," Oh God, all right." Well [ crosstalk 00:09: 17 ]

Speaker 2: ...always do the right thing because I think I might be biased in a different way.

Speaker 3: 100%. And that's the thing too. You have to remember your own value system and opinions and it is somewhat subjective. You can't objectively say like," Well that's good marketing."

Speaker 2: Totally.

Speaker 3: But I do think, one thing I like about marketing to marketers is that I do think it allows you to be a bit more creative than you could be with some other cohorts. And I love that part of it because for as left- brained, as I am, I really like the arts and crafts part marketing a lot.

Speaker 2: I could never do... I could never go to... I can never be at a different place and do something like I post this LinkedIn video, which is like, I'm going to do 30 sales demos in 30 days. I'm going to actually sell?

Speaker 3: See, I started as a BDR, I would never do that.

Speaker 2: Well, wow people... Somebody commented on this LinkedIn post the other day and they're like," I didn't get a demo from you." And I'm like," I did 30 and my month is over, what do you want me to do?"

Speaker 3: My quota.

Speaker 2: That's my regular job. But I can do stuff like that because I don't need to prep. I'm just going to talk to you about how I think that we can help you.

Speaker 3: Sure.

Speaker 2: You go to Eloqua, did it feel like... Where was Eloqua by the way? Eloqua was also a Toronto based business. I have made a career out of just community- You live in this area and then in Boston where we are locally and then you just go to Canada for work.

Speaker 3: Toronto is a really nice se-

Speaker 2: Toronto is amazing.

Speaker 3: It's a great city. It's easy to get to. Eloqua was founded in Toronto. They were headquartered here in the US but in Vienna, Virginia, when they originally incorporated here.

Speaker 2: Were Brian carton and, and people I know-

Speaker 3: All those people. No, they were in Cambridge, Massachusetts. We had what we like to refer to as the marketing center of excellence was in Kendall square. The marketing team was-

Speaker 2: You had a good group there.

Speaker 3: We had a killer group. It was a really good group. It was... Brian used to refer to it as The golden age of marketing.

Speaker 2: Of course.

Speaker 3: It was good and I was really-

Speaker 2: This is where we come to the footage of Brian and Joe on this, but we have Brian on this and it was like a thousand degrees that day. And this is when Gonzalo... We were originally going to do this sort of coffee, the same Mo it's at a coffee shop. It was like 200 degrees out. And he's carrying all the, just pouring things. And we were like," For Brian's, we're going to do it. We're going to do it in person."

Speaker 3: That's nice.

Speaker 2: He's had the no card in his pocket since then?

Speaker 3: No. He doesn't go without the no card. The No card is always there.

Speaker 2: He has an index card in his front pocket.

Speaker 3: Always.

Speaker 2: I love that.

Speaker 3: He is among the most interest... He's the most interesting man in the world. It's really subtle you would never know but he really is. Do you know he's an unbelievable tennis player?

Speaker 2: I thought you were going to say, he... To me he feels like a Jazz musician

Speaker 3: He's also that. He's an incredible saxophone player. I've been to parties at his house and they're jamming. All these dudes, these older guys.

Speaker 2: What do I have to do a get invite to Brian Carton? inaudible I feel like it's great wine, someone's on piano.

Speaker 3: It's real good. It's exact. It's all those things.

Speaker 2: All right. You had this crew here in Boston, Cambridge area, was it hard being... Did you feel like you were a remote team and everybody was in Toronto? You had the CMO in here or-

Speaker 3: No Eloqua, did this really well. Actually they were very distributed. You had the CEO and CFO who were in Vienna, Virginia. The CMO was here in Cambridge. Our chief revenue officer was in Houston, Texas. It was real distributed. There was an office in San Francisco and Eloqua really built a discipline around how do you have remote teams and make them really feel like part of the company. It was one of the tightest and sort of best cultures I've ever been a part of. And it was totally remote. They did some... I don't know what it was. I've tried to put my finger on it. I mean, it had a lot to do with bringing people together very regularly doing... I mean, before people used zoom, they did everything on video. I mean, every meeting was on video. You were always looking at people. There was a good discipline there but their philosophy I think was like hire great people, no matter where they are. We did... Part of our marketing team was in Toronto so that... It's got the normal challenges, but right now I manage a team of marketers that all sit in Toronto and I'm here in the Northeast. It's totally doable.

Speaker 2: All right. Tell me more about... Tell me what you're doing today. I want to know how many people are on your team? How do you have it structured? And especially you said coming from you, demand gen background, you're doing away with the content.

Speaker 3: There's this weird thing that I think happens on a lot in a lot of demand gen group, or sometimes you have this demand gen function and a marketing ops function. And then you have content people over here and they're not part of the same team. And it's just... It's always been problematic for me because I think at least that type of contents are top of funnel, mid funnel content is all about demand gen. I sort of broke that association and I actually made this kind of integrated or revenue marketing or growth marketing function or whatever. And it's marketing programs, it's the orchestration of demand, which I actually think demand gen today is mostly orchestration.hat's what it is, right? It's like trafficking and asset creation and all that stuff. And I bundled that up with content. It's really concerned with the themes and the offers and the campaigns and the channels. And it's all in one group, but I don't have a head of demand gen running it. What I actually did, was I took my really great head of demand gen, who probably knows our product better than anybody else and made him our head of product marketing, which was a weird, everyone thought that was kind of a weird move. And I'm like," But why?" He's already an evangelist. He knows our product really well. He knows where all the gaps are. He's the best person for this job.

Speaker 2: I love that mindset because I think it's easy to get caught up in like, this person is doing this. And so they have to go deep in this where it's like, wait a second. If we move person here, you know why? It just seems crazy. You have somebody who knows the product the best, but you're going to hire somebody who is going to do product marketing.

Speaker 3: Well, this was exactly... I mean, this kept me up at night. I was... We had this big gap in product marketing that we needed to fill. And the more I thought about it, I was like," Well, what's really important for product marketing? Knowledge of the product." And it's like," How are you going to hire someone from outside who has no knowledge of the product to be really good product marketing? It'll take them a long time to ramp."

Speaker 2: I think in product marketing, if you're passionate about it, my guess is knowing this person probably is super passionate about it because you can't love a B2B product, right? Unless you really-

Speaker 3: You got to be a big nerd.

Speaker 2: You got to be a big nerd.

Speaker 3: It also helps that he's Canadian so very earnest.

Speaker 2: That's a trifecta. All the right ingredients.

Speaker 3: Getting it done.

Speaker 2: And then you can teach or learn the other 10%, which is like, what is product marketing? Right? Because I bet you, you could take somebody. This is one of my biggest frustrations with marketers is, I think sometimes we get so caught up in the what the textbook best practice says, which is like, I would rather give a product... I would rather take your person and say," Write a positioning for this product with no framework, with no magic document, then have somebody who knows the positioning template and fill that out." I bet you that one's going to be better.

Speaker 3: It's funny that you say that. I think about this a lot. In my experience over the past four years, this is my first job where I got to run marketing and I was a demand gen marketer. I had not run all of marketing before, but I had done, like you, I had touched other parts of marketing. I had worked on the PR and comms side. I worked in product marketing. I had fairly broad knowledge. And it's so easy to kind of let history and best practice guide you. And just like," I'm going to do the thing that everybody does." And then, but if you're honest with yourself and you really think about how to solve problems, often it points to different types of solutions. And so I've been... I'm really lucky to work in an organization with a CEO who's real supportive and completely... He's just a sane and normal person. There's ego. He's not like," I said to do it, so you're going to do it." He's like," You think that's the right thing to do, let's see if it works." I've tried a lot of really unconventional things. I have a great marketing programs person on my team and he was a BDR and he had no marketing experience, but he knew our buyer really well. I had seen that he had really good communication skills. I looked at all his emails. He was really funny and witty. And he wanted to get a career in marketing and it was a great move for everybody. It's just like, I just don't think those conventional, just because that's the way everyone has done it doesn't mean that's the way everyone should do it.

Speaker 2: What is one of your biggest learnings like taking on, now you own all of marketing? What do you think? Because I think we do this because we want to talk to people who are in a similar position. Who one day want to run marketing, for example, right? What are the things that you didn't realize?

Speaker 3: Oh gosh, so many things. I mean, it was interesting. Obviously the company that I joined is not the company I work for now. I mean, when I joined, we were 20 people maybe. We were very small. We hadn't raised any money. It was super scrappy.

Speaker 2: Even when you started, you were probably... You had to do more. You're doing more.

Speaker 3: And it was actually part of why I took the job. Why I really took the job was because I fell in love with the problem these guys were trying to solve. And they built something that I, as a marketer looked at and was like," I've needed that my whole career. why did.... Someone built this thing? Thank you." That was a big part of it. But I also felt as a director of demand gen, I was a senior director of demand gen at Lattice. I was building teams and I was... I knew that discipline really well and I knew how to do it, but I felt like I was just managing people mostly. And I wanted... I felt like my skills were starting to atrophy. At least I thought that. I was like," I want to do the work. I'm going to roll up my sleeves and build some stuff." And so I took this job. There was pretty much no team. There were a few people and they weren't all full time. And so I was like," I'm just going to see what I can do. And oh man." My skills had not atrophied. I was fine but I really had to do the work. I had to do all the heavy lifting.

Speaker 2: I Wrote something about this week. I mean, who knows when this is going to go live? This week is irrelevant. But... And I said, I used to get probably five, six years ago, I would go and ask a lot of people like you for marketing advice. I would say," Look you're on the path to run marketing somewhere, what do you do? What advice would you give me?" And everybody gave me this advice, which I realized now I completely disagree with them. It did not help me at all. Which is like specialize in something. Pick that one thing and specialize. And what I've had to do is... Instead I said," I'm going to join a company where I'm betting on the people in the problem so the founders in the market, and I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm going to have to do all of it." And so as a result- inaudible a bunch of things Had to do PR, events, SEO, blog, webinars.

Speaker 3: I had the BDR team reporting into me for several months this year.

Speaker 2: Have you ever managed BDRs in your life?

Speaker 3: Never in my life. And I'd been close to it and I had a point of view about it. And it was at a point in time in the company's history that it was the right thing to do and it just needed to be done and I needed to manage it and I did, but I had no idea how to do that. And... But that's what makes it fun. I mean in a company like this, that's growing so fast, we're a growth stage company. We've not raised two rounds of funding. I mean, we were just Deloitte fast 50 and in Canada. We're growing real fast and we're now well over a hundred people. My job has not been the same. I mean, every year I've been there it's been totally different. It's remarkable to look back on and go," Wow, it's the same company." You have to... I mean, while in that first year or two was like all the building in the... Which I love. I love building demand, infrastructure, and process. And I'm a process person. I love that stuff. I love figuring out how we're going to measure things. And, but now it's much more about building teams, managing people, figuring out how to work on a management team and have that be my number one thing. I mean, you have to start to get used to, oh, those things that made you good at your job before are not the things that are going to make you good at your job now. And you have to get comfortable with that. That's-

Speaker 2: I think what you said is really important, which is the mindset of just always reinventing yourself. Every year is going to be different and you've got to figure out what are the things that you're going to go work on this year.

Speaker 3: But it's much easier, I will say when you're on a winning team, I mean, to be on a team with great people where the company is growing fast is when... That's what enables that kind of growth because you're forced to constantly level up and find some new crosstalk.

Speaker 2: If the team isn't winning you don't get the opportunities to-

Speaker 3: You don't.

Speaker 2: ...experiment, right?

Speaker 3: That's true.

Speaker 2: I want to do something else with you before you go but I'm interested in, what are your rituals as a remote marketing leader? How do you keep the ship running without missing? without being on there like," Hey, can I grab you for a second?"

Speaker 3: You're going to be so unimpressed with-

Speaker 2: Maybe there's nothing and it is great.

Speaker 3: One thing that I-

Speaker 2: inaudible cameras in every room in your house.

Speaker 3: It's so crazy. One thing that I am obsessed with is the appropriate use of time. My time, my team's time. There's nothing drives me more crazy than sitting in a meeting that I'm just like," Why am I here? Why is meeting happening?" Even if I'm the one who thought we should have that meeting? I'm just like," Oh this is a waste of time." And my team will laugh when they see this but at least every six months, I completely burn down the meeting schedule and I start over.

Speaker 2: I just did this.

Speaker 3: I'm like," I got to think it, I got to rethink it. And there's a better way to do it."

Speaker 2: The past two weeks has been the best... Has been the most free I felt in a long time because I just hard reset.

Speaker 3: You got to do it sometimes.

Speaker 2: And because you're getting all these things that don't have a purpose or a need.

Speaker 3: Or they did at one point and they don't now. And I mean, as my team has changed, I've had to really rethink what," How do we spend time together?"

Speaker 2: inaudible I'm just destroying the calendar phase.

Speaker 3: I do it a lot. I do it pretty regularly. That's one thing. I almost never have a communication if it's going to be longer than a couple of sentences it's happening on video. We're looking at each other. I had to have a conversation with someone yesterday about a holiday card. And I knew it was going to be a little bit more than I could convey over slack. And I was like," You got a second. Let's just hop on zoom." we do that. We do on my team, our marketing slack channel is, we make ample use of that thing. I mean often for ridiculous reasons. I can, we do to. I mean, it's that makes me, it helps me to feel really connected to what's going on even when I'm not there. You also have to be there. I spend a lot of time with my team. I try to go at least once a month, I go to a lot of events and a lot of people on my team go to events. We rendezvous in various locations. And so we have the discipline to do that stuff. Those are the big things. I mean, it's all about communication you got to stay on top of it

Speaker 2: And probably setting, how do you set goals? My guess is this system doesn't work. If people don't have clear goals.

Speaker 3: They have to be super clear. One thing I will say, I think about especially being a remote manager, I started out as the remote head of marketing and I knew early on, the only way for that to work is if the people I hired were senior enough. I couldn't have people on the ground in Toronto who were looking for help all the time. They had to be fairly autonomous. And so I hired a sort of a layer of management that was working their way up to being senior and were could operate without a ton of oversight, that's an important thing. We take goal- setting pretty seriously. It's a company- wide quarterly initiative that starts with company goals and roles down. I try to stick to three goals, but I try to make it very clear how they sort of mapped to each of the-

Speaker 2: What are you're three goals for net right now?

Speaker 3: We have a goal around SEO and findability getting found. SEO hasn't been a huge. We're in sort of a niche category and emerging category.

Speaker 2: How do you pick that? Out of the 20 things you could, because you pick that as a goal becomes a priority?

Speaker 3: Becomes the time is right, right now. I mean, again, we have... If you... For a company our size and our stage, we have incredibly mature demand, infrastructure and process. I'm not worried about that I know how to do that part. It's almost table stakes to say, well, we're going to have a SQO goal and we're going to know how to build a really crazy model to figure out what that should look like and we're going to do all this stuff. That's almost... Then you have to look in the margins of like," What's going to help us grow?" It's all about growth, right?

Speaker 2: Who does the model on your team?

Speaker 3: I have a revenue Ops person and so he does the model. He owns that model and we've added a ton of interesting and fun and sophisticated things to make that model more bulletproof over the past several quarters. But SEO was a thing where you start to go. We were this kind of niche category. It's starting to become a thing. People are looking for something like us, even if they're not sure what to call it. We need to be there when they're looking and we hadn't done a good job of investing in those kinds of adjacent spaces I made it a priority.

Speaker 2: And how do you set, what is it like, how do you set a goal around SEO is in that traffic?

Speaker 3: It's like we carved out a couple of keywords that we thought were really important and we want to increase our organic search ranking and not by a certain amount, just increase, make it better because then you can start to go, if this, now we've got yo benchmark.

Speaker 2: You don't say this term is on the bottom of page one and we want to get to position two.

Speaker 3: That's what we'll do next. Today it's just, create the content, build the process, build the discipline and the muscle memory around. This is an important thing that we need to do so that we start to... It starts to get built into our DNA.

Speaker 2: It wins our people are high- fiving because all of a sudden this page now ranked crosstalk.

Speaker 3: It's better. And now I can say, now we're going to make it better by an order-

Speaker 2: Which is also a different skill set and person that has to work on that or you can teach it, but that's optimizing, like how do you get from position eight to position two?

Speaker 3: Absolutely. And we always have a demand centric goal and that demand goal is always tied to a conversion goal BEcause I will never sign up for demand goal that's just like I could pump all kinds of crap in there, that's one.

Speaker 2: I see that was one. What are the other two?

Speaker 3: The other one is kind of content specific.

Speaker 2: Do you you have your revenue and pipeline are kind of like... You don't count those as goals because that's just-

Speaker 3: Those are company wide goals.

Speaker 2: That's just life.

Speaker 3: That's that's life. Those company goals are for everyone in the company. Everyone shares those goals. They are departmental goals that my team has. One is around demand gen, one is around SEO this quarter. And the other one is actually around persona level content because we got really good at marketing to demand gen marketers that tends to be our buyer, but we tend to focus primarily on them. And really there's a lot of other buyers involved in our deal cycles. We set a goal of creating three new unique pieces of content per each additional persona that we may see in our buying cycles. And so it's a quantitative goal. It's a number of things, but it's also a little soft. It's a kind up to us what that is, what that means.

Speaker 2: Or like I mean, we do stuff like that, which is like, we need more enterprise EK studies. Well let's have five. Great.

Speaker 3: There you go.

Speaker 2: I know I said we were going to go, but one more thing we didn't talk about. You told me you are shifting to focus more on brand, why? And what does that mean?

Speaker 3: Oh here's where I get to give you a compliment. I do.

Speaker 2: I love compliments.

Speaker 3: I heard you talk about it. We both spoke at flip my funnel this past summer and you did this whole thing on basically brand driving demand. And I think that's true. I think that, well, first of all, people have to know who you are, but dont like you. It has to be a brand that you care about, that you relate to, that you find interesting. Now, it's really hard to MarTech, right? Because there's a bajillion different brands and it's hard to tell one from the other.

Speaker 2: We interviewed somebody the other day and it was one of those, in a good way, demand gen ops people where he came in and he had his laptop open in the interview and he had the front of his laptop was every MarTech vendor you could imagine.

Speaker 3: inaudible landscape,

Speaker 2: [ inaudible 00:00:28:43] Landscape I was like, this is why you need a brand because this person's just going to, whoever's giving out swag and put on the computer.

Speaker 3: And it's funny you say that because I think like I've struggled to know what that means. What does it mean to have a brand? And I guess it came into clear focus over the past several months where I was like, we rebranded in May and that allowed us to sort of fine tune how we talked about ourselves and what's our message and all that stuff. But it still wasn't really clear when you looked at us like, what our point of view was like? What do we really like? Your whole thing is about now and right. And marketing's happening right now and your buyer wants it right now. And it's really clear what your point of view is. And I felt like we were soft on that. And so we've spent the past couple months getting really sharp on that. And now it's like, well, how do you amplify that and elevate it?

Speaker 2: I think that what you said is, I didn't expect you to answer it that way, but to me that's the most important piece like, I think you just have to pick a side. Even if there's another side that is just as effective, you just need to stand for something because there's just too much noise to not stand for anything anymore where like... I think it was different 2005, 2006, you could just have something and people are like," Ooh, cool. You to have a reason."

Speaker 3: And I think that was our problem was that we kind of stood for a lot of things. We like this and we like that and whatever. And it's not enough. And our whole point of view today is that buyers live in this on- demand world and they expect the same kind of experiences and their B2B lives that they have in their B2C lives. And the way that B2B marketing works is just... It doesn't work for them. It's not really personalized or curated or easy to access. It doesn't surface the information they want when they want it. And so B2B marketing needs to be on demand. And so once we kind of, once that started to form as a point of view, it became really easy to see the path to like," How do you build a big brand around this?" I'm excited to do that. It's been fun.

Speaker 2: Just buy a lot of stickers.

Speaker 3: That I'm going to buy all the stickers and t- shirts and the hats.

Speaker 2: Cool. Thanks for doing this. I appreciate it. It's nice to hear a demand gen person like yourself, starting to think about the softer side. No, I'm just kidding. I think it's important... I think tell you, you got to have all pieces of it. And I wanted to interview you on this because I think you have a lot of interesting ingredients, your background from Eloqua and running a marketing team, being remote and having a successful team in a good time doing it.

Speaker 3: You can ask them how successful inaudible.

Speaker 2: Thanks for doing it. Well, this is... All these segments, we do you and then we do the team. We have them all coming on zoom after this to tell us how you really are.

Speaker 3: They would say, inaudible

Speaker 2: Hey, thanks for listening to another episode of the Swipe file. I'm having a lot of fun doing this podcast. And so because it's fun for me, I hope it's fun for you. And it would mean the world if you could leave a review. Reviews really help and so go leave a review. Go to apple podcast, leave a review. Let me know what you liked about the show, didn't like, want to hear more of, also if you're not already subscribed, make sure you go subscribe on apple podcasts, Spotify. The show is everywhere that you get your podcasts probably where you're listening right now. But if you want more content like this, if you want to go a layer deeper, join me on drift insider it's drift. com/ insider we're teaching courses. We're sharing videos and we have exclusive content for people just like you and marketing that we do not share publicly. Go and check it out. drift. com/ insights.

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