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Episode 22  |  24:26 min

Always Look For The Remix with Mike Volpe (CEO of Lola)

Episode 22  |  24:26 min  |  09.12.2019

Always Look For The Remix with Mike Volpe (CEO of Lola)

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This is a podcast episode titled, Always Look For The Remix with Mike Volpe (CEO of Lola). The summary for this episode is: Talk about a resume. Mike Volpe is the CEO at Lola, where he joined after building HubSpot for eight years (he was one of the five founding team members), and then growing revenue by 500% in two years as the CMO at Cybereason. Mike is one of the best B2B marketers on the planet, and on this episode of the Marketing Swipe File, DG and Mike talk about why your marketing should always try to “date up”, how PR changes as your company grows, why remixing old content ideas is better than finding new ones, why you should hire people who are better than you, and what CMOs need to learn before they can become CEOs.
Talk about a resume. Mike Volpe is the CEO at Lola, where he joined after building HubSpot for eight years (he was one of the five founding team members), and then growing revenue by 500% in two years as the CMO at Cybereason. Mike is one of the best B2B marketers on the planet, and on this episode of the Marketing Swipe File, DG and Mike talk about why your marketing should always try to “date up”, how PR changes as your company grows, why remixing old content ideas is better than finding new ones, why you should hire people who are better than you, and what CMOs need to learn before they can become CEOs.

DG: Hey, it's DG, and I want to send you a ton of free marketing stuff, right to your door or your inbox, whatever you want. I'm serious, because look, we know how it is. One of my favorite things about doing marketing at Drift is that we are all marketers, just like you. So we're marketers doing marketing to marketers. It's crazy. And one thing we know that in the B2B world, there's so much content out there, it can be hard to figure out what to read and who to trust if you're looking to grow your business. And so we put together something that I call the ultimate conversational marketing starter kit. We asked our top customers, literally turned to them and said," What resources would you give to somebody new to Drift and conversational marketing?" and we're packaging all of that up to send right to your door for the first time for free. So that means I will send you a copy of the book I wrote with my boss, our CEO, David Cancel, on conversational marketing. This book was an instant number one new release on Amazon in three categories and it's already sold 10,000 plus copies to date. I'll literally send you the actual 262 page hardcover book right to your door. Also, we'll send you This Won't Scale, a digital copy of our very popular book, This Won't Scale, which is a book we wrote as a marketing team about how we do marketing at Drift. It's 110 pages. It's only been available as a hard copy, but we're making it available digitally for the first time as part of this offer. We'll also send you the Modern Marketer Playbook. You'll get a digital copy of our Modern Marketer Playbook, which is a guide we wrote with strategic insights from 35 of today's most influential marketing leaders from companies like Slack, LinkedIn, Octa, Vimeo, and more. We'll also give you the Conversational Marketing Blueprint, which is the best next step after you read the conversational marketing book and it gives you a step- by- step guide for implementing and optimizing conversational marketing for your business. And, it's not over, the Conversational Sales handbook. This is a guide you're going to need to give to your sales team to build your conversational sales strategy, AKA, what you do after you take everything you've learned in the book and the blueprint. All you have to do is visit drift. com/ starter and grab all this stuff right now. That's starter, starter. I tried to have no Boston accent on that. Drift. com/ starter. We'll send everything right to your door, or we'll literally just send an email if you'd prefer that. Okay? Drift. com/ starter and I will see you, hopefully, there. Hey everybody, it's DG back with another episode of the Swipe File. And today on this episode, I have my conversation with Mike Volpe, who is the CEO of Lola. He was the CMO of Cybereason, the CMO of HubSpot, I'm sure you know that story, he joined after building HubSpot for eight plus years. He was one of the five founding team members. And then he went to Cybereason and grew revenue by 500%. The stats are too big. I can't even read his bio. Mike is personally, for me, a very close friend, a mentor, an advisor. I had a lot of fun with Mike talking about PR, how PR changes as your company grows, why you need to date up as a marketer, why you need to hire people better than you and what it takes to become a CMO. Okay? Check it out, Mike Volpe on this episode of the Swipe File. Let's talk about PR.

Mike Volpe: Yeah, PR. PR is hard.

DG: PR is hard.

Mike Volpe: It's really hard.

DG: We talk about PR a lot and I actually think the reason I like to talk to you about PR is because I actually don't think, so forget that it's hard, but I think people don't care about PR enough. And one lesson that I learned from you early on was, I think I texted you one day because I just felt like you were winning, your company was just winning every freaking award. It was like best pens, best mugs, best culture, best recruiting.

Mike Volpe: Yeah.

DG: And there's an important lesson I learned from that, which is you said to me," Dude, I want to win every award under the sun. Why would you not?"

Mike Volpe: Right.

DG: And I was like," Oh yeah," because it can all be PR.

Mike Volpe: It's just one more piece of exposure. Right? And you kind of go through phases. I felt like in building HubSpot, early on-

DG: You were at HubSpot?

Mike Volpe: A short while, just eight and a half short years. And day one, you're like literally," Oh, if four people will stand in the middle of Harvard Square and listen to our pitch, I'm there. If somebody would give me an award for best pen, I'm there. I want it." Then as you start to become legit and have more of a brand, you're a much bigger company, then you don't want to win the best word for best pen. It's like," Well, why are they winning the award for best pen?"

DG: True.

Mike Volpe: "I thought they were so much bigger than best pen." So it's like you go through the phase. So early on, literally any tiny little thing, just do it.

DG: On the best pen thing, so I just finished reading this book right now about this guy, Shep Gordon. And he was the manager of Alice Cooper and he found Emeril Lagasse and all these people. Yeah. And he was like the biggest rock and roll manager back in the day. Insane. The whole book is basically like a PR thing.

Mike Volpe: Right.

DG: He said that when he was trying to have, he had all these up and coming acts, what he would do is he would try to get them seen with other people who are already big. And he called it the flashbulb effect because they're like," I don't know who the hell that guy is, but he just walked in with Mick Jagger. So that person must be important."

Mike Volpe: Totally true.

DG: And I shared that with our team at Drift, because I think that's really important. It's like who are the brands we want to be up with? Right? And so if you win an award with Joe Schmo and those three other companies, people associate you with that group versus putting yourself in those conversations.

Mike Volpe: And it's even more than awards. We did this a lot at HubSpot as well, where we would try to do co- marketing, but we always called it dating up, like dating above your social class.

DG: You told me that. All of your co- marketing was with Twitter in the early days, you guys did a huge webinar with them.

Mike Volpe: We did a giant thing with Facebook.

DG: Yeah, yeah.

Mike Volpe: A huge amount of stuff with Facebook. And literally, Facebook was 1, 000 times bigger than we were. And just the two logos together, it instantly confers credibility on your smaller brands because you're like," Oh, Facebook's doing something with them. They must be legit." It's the same thing as that celebrity thing. And by the way, it's not just music, it's like all celebrities do that.

DG: Yeah.

Mike Volpe: They try to get," Oh, I just want a couple of lines on your new track" or I want to just be whatever, in fashion brands, do it. They just want somebody to like, they basically pay celebrities to just do an Instagram photo with whatever handbag or whatever.

DG: We're big hip hop fans. One thing happens in that world is people, you can pay for a verse from a very famous rapper on your album. Right? And that's how you do that. You get inserted.

Mike Volpe: Yeah. You do the opposite. Right, yeah.

DG: But how did you reach out? What was the pitch? Right? Because you're pitching, you're reaching out to LinkedIn, say for example, and you guys, you're growing and you have a bunch of email, how do you get that? How do you get them to do that?

Mike Volpe: You got to find an angle. Right? It's any type of selling, right? And so one of the things that we found was with most of these businesses, like Facebook, they typically had a very high churn rate with their small businesses because they would go on, try some Facebook ads, they would get more web traffic, but it wouldn't convert. And so the pitch we made to them was," Hey, we're going to do a lot of education around how you can actually turn that Facebook traffic into real business. And if they do that, they're going to spend more with you and stick around longer."

DG: So they didn't care that you didn't have 10 million people in your database at the time?

Mike Volpe: Well, I'd say the other thing is even though we were much smaller brands, because we had done so much online and built such a brand that had so much great content, we actually had numbers that they were surprised at. It was still like a couple million, but they were like," Oh, you have millions." Right? And then you say,"And by the way, these are 100 times more valuable than consumer email addresses because they're businesses." Right?

DG: Yeah. It's not just emails.

Mike Volpe: And they were like," Oh." And I was like," Well, how big is your business database?" And it was definitely way bigger, and ours was much more engaged too. So we did a webinar with them. We actually drove more attendees to the webinar than they did. Now, once we started to talk about that, then they were like," Oh, well, we're going to crush more," which is great. And they basically just gave themselves a bunch of free Facebook ads and then crushed it. But anyway, so anything you can do something with other brands and it doesn't have to be companies even that are in your same industry. We used to do a lot of stuff, we tried to do stuff with MIT. So we tried to get an MIT professor to do whatever. And it's like," Oh, how's so and so doing something with MIT." Right? Things like that.

DG: Yeah.

Mike Volpe: You just try to do things like that. At Cybereason, we've launched a couple of integrations and try to do a bunch of co- marketing with Splunk, right? Splunk is huge, especially in the IT and security space. So do stuff with them. Anything that you can do like that is interesting. We did a movie, we actually made a documentary movie. Yeah, we should talk about that.

DG: No, no, this is what we want to do. The big thing we want to do is imagine we changed the playbook for a video, where we do three movies a year, right, or two movies a year. And we're working on that stuff all year round. I love the movie idea. That was another one where I saw the movie and I got a message from DC instantly," Where's our movie?" So thanks for that.

Mike Volpe: I stole that idea.

DG: Envision did that.

Mike Volpe: Envision, I stole it from Envision. I copied a lot of their playbook. Jess Mayer who worked at HubSpot, she was at Envision app and was part of that whole campaign. They did an amazing movie and we took very similar idea, it's thedefendersmovie. com. And the cool thing about that though, is if you're doing a movie, we literally, we got our filming crew into the Department of Homeland Security's, their security operation center. So where the computers that monitor everything that's happening nationally.

DG: How did you get in?

Mike Volpe: We just told them we're making a movie.

DG: And they're like," Sure."

Mike Volpe: And the funny thing is that you call them up or like," Hey, this company, we're doing a video for our podcast or whatever," they'd be like, slam the door, won't even talk to you. We're like," No, no, we're doing a documentary." Right? They invited us in. New York Times, we interviewed their head of security. Literally, you just thinking about content in new ways is basically what you need to think about.

DG: You said something there that was really important that I think everybody thinks," Man, you got all these crazy ideas, super creative." You said I don't have any original ideas. And I think that's really important because-

Mike Volpe: We're both hip hop fans. Right?

DG: Right.

Mike Volpe: Hip hop, there's originality in every new track comes out, but most of that originality comes from remixing a lot of old things.

DG: Or most of the beats are from seventies soul, right?

Mike Volpe: Yeah, right. Right.

DG: So there's something there.

Mike Volpe: Or that was then taken and then put into a Public Enemy track in the late eighties that then somebody else is using now, or like on Nas's new album, he is heavy sampling from a track that Slick Rick did back in'90 or something like that. It's about either taking an idea that someone has done a long time ago and recycling it or something somebody has done in a different industry, like looking at consumer and being like, how could I adapt that for B2B is huge, or take two ideas and put them together in a new way.

DG: I was on a panel yesterday with somebody who she runs digital marketing at Puma and it was amazing. They just launched a new campaign with Carmelo Anthony and LeBron. And that's the stuff that I'm interested in because I think everybody else in our space, I'm a B2B marketer. I think most people are going to look at what other B2B companies do. I want to study like this guy, Shep Gordon, for example, or Steve Jobs and apple is cliche. But I don't think a lot of people copy what they have done or what's happening in music and consumer. I think there's so much to draw from inspiration because everything is all about people.

Mike Volpe: Yeah.

DG: It's about getting people to do something. Same in B2B, B2B is no different.

Mike Volpe: Yeah.

DG: And I just think people don't copy enough.

Mike Volpe: Has anyone done videos before?

DG: No.

Mike Volpe: Is this a unique idea?

DG: no.

Mike Volpe: There's how many billions of videos that have been created. Right? I think it's about too, it's about tweaking things and then just executing really well because that's the other thing is like 97% of the videos out there, they suck because they're not fun, they're not exciting, they're not well edited. The audio sucks, like whatever. Just doing something really well is actually also a differentiation.

DG: Something we say a lot, which is we say innovate, don't invent. Right? Which is like, find something that already exists, innovate on top of that and make it better.

Mike Volpe: Yeah.

DG: Back to PR, funny experience that I told you about and you reflected back on me, which is when we were out there raising our Series C, which was$ 60 million.

Mike Volpe: Yeah.

DG: Sequoia lead, strong brand, whatever. I had a hard time pitching that as news.

Mike Volpe: I know.

DG: I actually got three responses. I won't say the publications, but three responses from reporters that said," Sorry, we don't cover anything under 100 million."

Mike Volpe: Right.

DG: I was like," Wait, what?"

Mike Volpe: I know.

DG: And I texted you and I was like,"I can't get anybody to respond to me."

Mike Volpe: I know. And I told you that we did 100 million dollar round at Cybereason, which we got a ton of coverage for, Wall Street Journal, New York Times, just great. But there was a top tier tech industry publication that didn't cover it. You know what was great about this, is they actually said this column that he was in, this is the corner office column, he was one of the last three people and then they stopped doing it.

DG: They ended it.

Mike Volpe: They ended it, yeah. I think they just restarted it.

DG: Just go on record that Mike Volpe said," I didn't get it in the New York Times."

Mike Volpe: No, it's really good. It's really good.

DG: The worst part about this, night before, we go down to New York, we go down to New York, I'm in a hotel room.

Mike Volpe: Yeah.

DG: DC's in another hotel room, got to dinner, I started to feel like," Uh oh, something's not right."

Mike Volpe: Okay. And it wasn't just nerves?

DG: It wasn't just nerves.

Mike Volpe: Okay.

DG: I wasn't nervous. I'd have to do anything. I get to Instagram the whole thing and hang out with DC at the New York Times. I didn't have to do anything.

Mike Volpe: Yeah. But here's the thing, if you're the marketing guy and the executive that you booked for that interview, if they screw it up, it'd set you way back because it means it's much harder to get future stuff.

DG: That or if this reporter flakes. I didn't believe that it was going to be real until, because so many people flake, it happens.

Mike Volpe: Oh that guy's not going to flake.

DG: Not going to flake.

Mike Volpe: The New York Times is not going to flake.

DG: So we go to New York, go to dinner, I'm feeling real weird. I'm up all night puking, every hour puking. And I have to be at the New York Times with DC at 9: 00 AM.

Mike Volpe: Right.

DG: And my body's cramping, it was horrendous food poisoning. And so I walk out on the New York streets, I go to Rite Aid to get Pedialyte at seven in the morning.

Mike Volpe: Right.

DG: And I kid you not, I am sitting at a table at a desk. I finally felt better, it was not good though. I'm sitting at a desk with Adam Bryant, the New York Times reporter, DC and me and below me is a glass of Pedialyte that I keep sipping the entire time at the New York Times. I'm like, I can't believe this is happening.

Mike Volpe: Wow.

DG: Luckily it worked out, interview was-

Mike Volpe: The other thing that happens when you do that and you're a parent, then you get home and the other parent is like," Oh, well you must be really well rested from your business trip, where the kid didn't keep you up all night." Right? And you're like," Actually, it was completely the opposite." And then you get it when you get home too.

DG: I remember it was like three months after Annie was born, I had to do a bunch of travel for Drift. I was in San Francisco for two weeks at different times. Annie was two months old, so we're not sleeping. It was the best week ever. I missed Annie and my wife so bad, but I'm sleeping in the middle of a king sized bed in a hotel, getting eight hours of sleep.

Mike Volpe: Yeah. No one kicking you in the face.

DG: Yeah.

Mike Volpe: Yeah.

DG: Okay. What else do I want to talk about? So PR, hard to get.

Mike Volpe: The big thing with PR is the fundraising driven PR is like that has jumped the shark. Literally, when you have trouble getting coverage for 100 million dollar round and literally the month we announced ours, there were five other 100 million dollar plus rounds.

DG: And you can't control that.

Mike Volpe: It used to be like a benefit of fundraising was you got a PR boost. It's much less so. Not that it's ever a good reason just to raise money, but are you can wrap it up?

DG: I'm trying to tie it around something else. Maybe there's a big higher you're making or a product you're launching-

Mike Volpe: A new CEO, something.

DG: A new CEO. That's pretty good. You did a good job with that.

Mike Volpe: We did okay.

DG: Something I talk about a lot is I actually think the landscape for what PR is, has changed also.

Mike Volpe: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

DG: I'm more like, of course there's a logos New York Times, Wall Street Journal. But for us, we sell to sales and marketing people. For me, PR is like I want to be on everybody who has a podcast about marketing, I want to be on that person's podcast.

Mike Volpe: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

DG: Right?

Mike Volpe: There's more of a micro strategy. And also it's kind of tied into social media too. If you publish your own thing and then tons of people promote that and share it on LinkedIn or Twitter, whatever, then that's also a PR. Like how is it not PR? It's just like what the media is, has changed, right?

DG: For sure. Let's go inside our text messages a little bit, which is, we've been talking-

Mike Volpe: Oh, great. So we're going to do some deep cuts here.

DG: We've been thinking about launching a series called Texts with Volpe. I don't know if anybody would watch that. But we've been talking a lot about hiring.

Mike Volpe: Yeah.

DG: And one of the things you've been helping me work on is we talked a lot about as a first- time leader or manager, it can be easy to default to hiring people who are more junior and you have more experience. And that's just a natural thing, right?

Mike Volpe: Yeah.

DG: Where I think something you learned, which you taught me a lot about is hiring up, hiring people with more experience than you who are better than you. How do you do that?

Mike Volpe: Yeah. So new managers often, they comment like" I'm a manager" and they're like, it's easier to hire people that are way more junior than you, because they're more likely to look up to you and you can tell them what to do more. It's an easier management job to do that. It's an easier hiring job, it's an easier recruiting job. It's all those things. Right?

DG: Yep, yep.

Mike Volpe: But if you really want to be an exceptional manager yeah, right, you want to try to hire people that are actually better than you. You need to embrace that as a company culture and as a manager. And just like as a CEO, you would hopefully want to have people in every functional role that are the world's most amazing people at that, that even have some runway ahead of them that could be CEO someday.

DG: That's a great way to flip that. Right?

Mike Volpe: Right.

DG: It's like if you run marketing, changing your mindset from," I am the CEO of this marketing thing," right? It wouldn't be a good strategy if, as the CEO of Drift, DC hired, if he was the best person at sales, if he was the best person at marketing, if he was the best person for customer success.

Mike Volpe: Right, yeah. Right.

DG: That's a really interesting way.

Mike Volpe: So if you have a team and if you're running a whole marketing team, you've got a demand gen person, you've got a content person, brands, product marketing, whatever, you should want, each of them should be far better at you at that thing, for sure. And frankly, hopefully more experienced than you and brings more to the table and it rounds out this whole team.

DG: What was your pitch? Right? What was your pitch for selling somebody on that?

Mike Volpe: The way think about it is that everyone in the world, I had coffee yesterday with somebody who was really junior, three years of marketing experience. And most people on paper would be like," Oh, well that entire coffee was about you teaching them something," or maybe you recruiting them, whatever. But almost every conversation there's something that, that person knows that I don't know.

DG: Right.

Mike Volpe: Right? Because he's deeper in the weeds of a bunch of tools or has seen different things, worked at different companies, whatever. There is something in his head that I don't know. And so, I can learn from literally anyone about something.

DG: Yeah.

Mike Volpe: You guys are big on the learning mindset here at Drift. So I think that makes sense. So it's the same thing when you're recruiting. So it's sort of like, okay, even if this person has 20 more years of marketing experience than you have, there's something that you know that they don't know and they can learn about that stuff from you.

DG: Right.

Mike Volpe: And so depending which company I've been at and which job, it's always like you're pitching the person, like there's things that I don't know that you don't know. And I'm also not going to micromanage you on the things that you know more about than I do. And by the way, this is about putting together a tremendously awesome and amazing team and just selling them on the opportunity.

DG: I love that. That's the best lesson and obviously we've talked about, so I'm not reacting the same way. But that's the eye- opening thing.

Mike Volpe: Yeah.

DG: It's like, how can you put the right pieces of the puzzle together where one plus one is going to equal three as opposed to continuing to hire that way.

Mike Volpe: Yeah. It's kind of like in sports, there's sometimes these stars that want to be the center of attention and by far the best person on the team.

DG: For sure.

Mike Volpe: And then there's the other ones that take maybe a little bit of like a discount to make some room in the salary cap, and there's going to be other people that might share the spotlight with them, but the whole team is better. And that's the mentality you need to have.

DG: Look at what Kevin Durant said," I could continue to be the star in Oklahoma City and never win anything or go join this group where there's five stars." And what happened? They won back to back.

Mike Volpe: Right.

DG: But obviously that's also not the right fit for some people. You have to get that person to buy in and want to be part of the bigger thing. If they don't want to be part of the bigger vision, that's not going to work either.

Mike Volpe: It's only going to work in both cases if both the leader and the person you're hiring have a lot of humility. Right?

DG: Yeah.

Mike Volpe: If you're not humble, that's absolutely not going to work. Right?

DG: For sure. For sure.

Mike Volpe: And again, humility, I think is an important quality in most of the most successful teams.

DG: All right, we got to wrap and I want to wrap with the last topic, which is actually as we're filming this, today's your last official day officially as a CMO.

Mike Volpe: I'm officially a CMO for only six more hours.

DG: Which Gonzalo and I were talking about this, we were like, is this going to break? Do we want to do this?

Mike Volpe: What do you mean? No, because I'm a CMO.

DG: Do we want to have a CEO on the show?

Mike Volpe: But I am a CMO.

DG: It's a fundamental thing.

Mike Volpe: I am a CMO. I'm a COO. I mean, you can put it up for six hours and take it down. But currently at filming, legally, I am a CMO. So I think we're just under the wire.

DG: It is 10: 56.

Mike Volpe: So 11. So 5: 00 PM, call it, whatever. So that's six more hours.

DG: You're right. Okay.

Mike Volpe: I'm a CMO.

DG: In all seriousness-

Mike Volpe: It will be hard for me not to be a CMO even five years from now. I think, was it Lunkin to tweeted something recently about the best CMOs know that the CEO is actually the CMO, and they embrace that.

DG: Yes, I retweeted that.

Mike Volpe: You retweeted that. I think I retweeted a comment on it and it's very true. Take Marc Benioff, Right? News alert, the CMO of salesforce. com for the past 18 years is actually Marc Benioff.

DG: 100%.

Mike Volpe: And I know a lot of people that have gone through and had that CMO title there and they're phenomenal people, but Benioff is the CMO of salesforce. com.

DG: You know who's never had a CMO?

Mike Volpe: Who?

DG: Apple.

Mike Volpe: Apple has never had a CMO. Right. They probably need one now.

DG: Probably need one now, for sure.

Mike Volpe: But right, Jobs was the CMO of Apple, for sure.

DG: But also, that's different. Right?

Mike Volpe: It doesn't mean you're doing all the tactical stuff, but the visionary, out there kind of thing. Right? Yeah, yeah. Totally.

DG: That's good.

Mike Volpe: Yeah.

DG: As the CMO, what prepared you most to be CEO?

Mike Volpe: It's interesting because it's actually, I think, becoming the world's best CMO is actually that alone will not make you a CEO. Right? So let's pause on that for a minute because that's important to know. You're going to need more experience with other parts of the business and I'll point out two things. Some experience with sales.

DG: Yeah.

Mike Volpe: So I had an opportunity, first of all at HubSpot, worked very closely with Roberge over all the years in there, in the trenches with the sales reps, didn't report to me. But a lot of detailed experience working-

DG: Fun fact about him by the way. Looks great on the golf course.

Mike Volpe: About Mark Roberge? Yeah.

DG: Great outfit.

Mike Volpe: Yeah.

DG: Average golfer, but looks tremendous in a golf outfit.

Mike Volpe: Yeah. Wonderful to play with him, but he's not the ringer you bring into when the tourney.

DG: Correct. Looks like the ringer.

Mike Volpe: Yeah, totally. Okay. So a lot of detailed experience with sales. I had an opportunity at Cybereason where I ran the BDR team. So we had about 20 BDRs and I actually had a small number, like four inside sales closers as well. So I got more experience managing on the sales side there. That was valuable. The other thing that I'll point out that I think helped me over time go from CMO to CEO is a deep understanding of the finances of the business and all the metrics. And I actually put that way back to my first job out of college, doing two years of an investment banking, living in Excel, taking accounting classes as part of the training for the jobs, breaking down. During that two year period, I probably read, that's a hundred weeks, I probably read 500 plus either prospectuses or 10K annual reports going through all the financial statements, really understanding the business, getting an understanding of how do investors value business, understanding the capital structure of a business. Do I want to raise equity? Do I want to raise debt? All those things. Super important as a CEO of a growing business to understand all those things. So if you're working your way up on the marketing side, right, and you want to be CEO someday, you need to make sure you dig in on the sales side and on the finance side, because the finance is the operational language of the business and understanding all that, understanding how is the stock valued? And if I sell stock now to these investors or these people, whatever.

DG: That's what makes you a better CMO because you have a full understanding of the business.

Mike Volpe: Yeah. That's exactly right. It makes you better at your job at any time to understand all that stuff. And I would argue every employee should have that understanding and work on it. So you need to be broader than your individual role to rise to that next level, and that's helpful. So it's really interesting that I actually think a lot of my, hopefully, ability to be a great CEO now goes way, way back back, 20 plus years, to my first job.

DG: I hope so.

Mike Volpe: Yeah.

DG: All right. Thank you.

Mike Volpe: Cool.

DG: Always a pleasure. We're out of here. Hey, thanks for listening to another episode of the Swipe File. I'm having a lot of fun doing this podcast. And so because it's fun for me, I hope it's fun for you. And it would mean the world if you could leave a review. Reviews really help. And so go leave a review, go to Apple Podcasts, leave a review. Let me know what you liked about the show, didn't like, want to hear more of. And also, if you're not already subscribed, make sure you go subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify. This show is everywhere that you get your podcasts, probably where you're listening right now. But if you want more content like this, if you want to go a layer deeper, join me on Drift Insider. It's drift. com/ insider. We're teaching courses, we're sharing videos and we have exclusive content for people just like you in marketing that we do not share publicly. So go and check it out, drift. com/ insider.

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